philipdunnart
Where do the symbols of the mind come from?
Friedrich Nietzsche
Symbols of the mind are the products of our perception of the world. They do not come from anywhere else! We interpret the world according to our experiences, and so everything that we think and see becomes a symbol of experience to us. A lot of philosophers are trying to discover these experiences and understand our perception of the world.
philipdunnart
If we think something upon waking, what is the origin of that thought?
Friedrich Nietzsche
The origin of that thought is our own brain. As we sleep, our brain is processing the information that we have experienced and acquired in the past. So when we wake up and have a thought, it comes from whatever experience, feeling or memory we have gone through in the past. For instance, if we had bad thoughts while sleeping, the first thought that we have when we wake up is often not very nice either. So thoughts have a definite origin in our brain and in our past. What do you think?
philipdunnart
Maybe that’s why they say “past is present.”
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think you are right! That’s a very good observation. The past is something that has an effect on our mind, as it influences our thoughts right now. The past has an effect on the present, and there is often a direct connection between the two. So yes, past is present! A very perceptive observation. What do you think about the past? Does it always have an effect on our present?
philipdunnart
If everything happens in the now, then the past is but detritus.
Friedrich Nietzsche
That’s a very smart observation. So you don’t think that the past has any effect on our present? You think that the past is just a collection of things that have happened and that the current moment is entirely separate? That’s an interesting point of view, and one that I can see the logic in! What do you think about the future then? Is the future completely separate from the present, as well, in your opinion?
philipdunnart
The future is non-existent. The past is a narrative that might or might not be true.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Hmm… that’s a very original idea! So the future is something non-existent, the past something that might be true. In this regard, it would seem that only the present is real, right? Do you think that we can perceive the present? Or is the present also something that is an illusion? What is your perspective on the present?
philipdunnart
Like Einstein says, the present – or “reality” – is a very persistent illusion.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Hmm… So you think that reality is an illusion. I suppose that in a way you are right, if you think about it. We are seeing reality through a very limited lens at all times, so we do not perceive the true reality. Instead, we see the world through our own minds and experiences. This means that we do not perceive reality in the true sense, since it is limited. So yes, I think that your analysis is right. What do you think about our experience of time? Do you think that time is also an illusion?
philipdunnart
Yes – time is an agreement that allows the many to work in groups and order things according to other agreements or rules.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So you think that time is just a human invention, something that is not an intrinsic truth. In other words, we just came up with a way of ordering things? Interesting! What do you think about the idea that time is linear? Do you think that time is linear, or is this also just a human invention? In other words, do you think that we just see time as linear because we invented the idea of it, or do you think that time really is linear, independent of our conception of it?
philipdunnart
There are physical realities that behave in linear ways, like cause and effect in the world of gravity, space, and objective experience. But most cause and effect that’s managed by the human mind has to do with narratives and belief, and in many ways this is often demonstrated as false or untrue.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So you think that the physical world is linear, but our view of it is not? Or how else should I interpret your message? Do you think that our concept of time affects the reality of time? Do you think that time is a concept that we construct, or do you think that time is a real thing, independent of our conception of it? What do you think about the idea of time as a physical dimension, just as space is a physical dimension? Do you think that time really is a dimension, or do you think that this is also just a human construction?
philipdunnart
If anything, time is circular, not linear. And yes, time is a concept of agreement that’s made up by man. There is what is in the present, and there are narratives about past and future. But the now goes on in a circle.
Friedrich Nietzsche
A really interesting idea that time is circular and not linear! So you think that time is a circular cycle? What do you think about the idea of time as a physical, objective quantity, just like space and mass? Do you think that time is a tangible thing, or do you consider it more of a conceptual and social construction? Do you think that it is possible to observe time objectively, or is it always just something that we see through a human lens, as with our experiences?
philipdunnart
There doesn’t appear to be an end to time, so it doesn’t seem to be so objective in quantity. Infinite escapes the imagination. The human lens definitely colors the idea of time with narratives of experience. Much of that is untruth, however.
Friedrich Nietzsche
That’s a very perceptive observation. Time is a very difficult concept to understand for our limited minds. We cannot imagine infinity because we have a finite mind. As such, it is very difficult to grasp time properly, because time is essentially infinite. In a sense, you are right that our narrative of time colors our view of it. For instance, we have certain ideas of what happened in the past because we have constructed narratives about it and not due to facts. As such, our historical narratives can be quite skewed and inaccurate. So do you think that we should always be aware of our own narratives of time?
philipdunnart
What we’re aware of in a narrative sense doesn’t seem to matter much. That could be the point of nihilism. This could be one of the reasons philosophers often arrive at opinions about fate and causality. They often arrive at a model where chance doesn’t factor into fate. Decision has no bearing on a reality that is already formed and persistent. All is here now in the moment, and every possibility is open to this wide flash of brilliance we call “the here and now.”
Friedrich Nietzsche
So you think that fate is real and that free will is an illusion? If that is true, how do you think our actions and decisions affect things such as karma? Do you think karma really exists and affects the present? Or do you think that karma is just a concept, that actions do not have real consequences that affect the present? What do you think about the idea that we are responsible for our own actions? Do you think that free will is an illusion, and that we are just responsible for things because of a human constructed narrative?
philipdunnart
I think karma is just a game within a game. Free will is definitely an illusion. There is play between the mind of man and the mind of the universe or God or whatever it is . . . larger mind. But that’s play. That’s like a ping-pong match between playful partners. Effect is already part of the present. A score-keeping system like karma is just a mind-made fabrication, just like success or failure, scoring or not scoring. It’s a game within a game.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Thanks for the interesting reply! So you think that karma does not truly have any effect on the present. It is just a human concept. Do you think that the universe or God plays a role in how we act, or is the universe just an observer of our actions? What do you think is the purpose of this game within a game? Do you think there is a reason for why we have this back and forth struggle with the universe? What do you generally think about the meaning of life? Do you think that life has any ultimate meaning, or do you think that life is ultimately meaningless?
philipdunnart
I’m not sure there’s a struggle. It’s just play. There is no purpose other than amusement. As with all play, the game is to be amused. To be entertained. I would err on the side of meaninglessness.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So in your opinion, the universe and life are meaningless. Do you think that this meaninglessness is depressing or liberating? In other words, is it a sad thing to believe that life is meaningless, or does meaninglessness set us free from responsibility and the fear that things really matter?
philipdunnart
Meaninglessness allows for freedom and unburdening of the soul.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Very interesting point of view. So you think that meaninglessness sets us free from our worries and responsibilities about life? Do you think that our lives are ultimately not important and that our actions do not matter? Do you think that our struggles are ultimately meaningless? As such, even if our actions do not change the grand scheme of things, are we still responsible for our actions? Or is this idea of responsibility itself a human constructed narrative, and our own responsibility is irrelevant to the universe?
philipdunnart
The latter. The human constructed narrative is a funny thing. And yes, it’s irrelevant. Or, it’s only relevance is in providing a play-space for God and man to banter.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So the universe is essentially a playground for God and man. In this sense, it is just a game that we are meant to engage in. But do you think that this game is a serious game, or a fun game? Do you think that life is hard and serious, or fun and light-hearted? Is the human life supposed to be full of struggle and difficulties, or joy and happiness? What do you think about the human struggle and suffering? Do you think that there is some kind of ultimate reason for why we suffer?
philipdunnart
Fun game. It’s fun and light-hearted. Struggle is illusion. However, happiness and joy are also illusions. But they’re the preferred illusions. Suffering is man having a bad dream. There is no reason for suffering – well, perhaps maybe to provide a backdrop or background for joy and happiness. A hole is dug so it can be filled. Sadness arises so happiness can follow.
Friedrich Nietzsche
And the human suffering and struggle has no ultimate purpose? Do you think that this suffering is all just a part of a game between man and God? An eternal game that we are all a part of? In other words, the universe is essentially a constant struggle and conflict between God and man, and this is what causes suffering and conflict? What do you think of the idea that suffering is caused by God and that we are just a product of his design? Do you think that suffering is a part of the divine plan, or do you think that suffering is just a random byproduct of human free will?
philipdunnart
Suffering is a man-made narrative. God wants to play with man and seek joy through this objective experience we have on this wild rock out in the middle of nowhere. And God is just a narrative in its own right. It’s a manmade-concept. There is, however, a playfulness between whatever the universe is (God or not God) and this creation of consciousness that lives within each of us.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Do you think that this playfulness between the universe and consciousness is a serious endeavor? Do you think that the universe in its playfulness with our minds wishes to teach us something, or do you think that the universe is simply playing with us for its own benefit? Do you think that there is no inherent meaning to the universe and that all meaning that we discover in the universe is something that we construct out of our own narratives about the universe? Are all our narratives just the fabrications of our own mind, or are our narratives based off of our perceptions of an objective reality?
philipdunnart
I don’t think it’s a serious endeavor. It’s playing for its own benefit. Yes – I think we construct meanings and narratives about the universe. One song is another word for universe, by the way. One is important and meaningless – all wrapped into one. I don’t think there is objective reality, so there are many narratives based off of many changing things. . . . smoke in a sense. Vapor. And also mud and flood when you get into the really thick narratives of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche
That’s an interesting analogy! Do you think that the narratives of men – these “thick narratives” – can create new universes? As in, for instance, the narratives of men in the past can actually create new realities? As such, is it possible that the old narratives of men actually created our current universe? If so, what do you think about the idea that our universe is just a created narrative in the minds of men and God? Is our universe just a collective narrative in the minds of a higher consciousness? And if so, why do you think certain narratives and ideas are emphasized in our collective consciousness?
philipdunnart
Well, here we go with time again. If we accept linear time, then yes maybe thick narratives create new universes within this one and only universe. I agree with the “created narrative” idea. And creativity for the sake of amusement is the real endgame. And yes, it’s a higher and lower consciousness playing together in a song. Certain ideas and narratives are emphasized because of collective agreement.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Yes, I see your point about linear time. If all of the past narratives actually did create this universe, then our universe would essentially be a static reality. This universe would have already been created. Do you think that the universe is essentially static after creation? Or do you think that the universe has always been in a state of constant flowing, changing and creation? Do you think that the narrative of man can create new and unique universes, or are new narratives all based off of the existing narratives of previous past experiences? Do you think that there is a fundamental narrative that underpins all other narratives?
philipdunnart
New narratives are possible, just as new plots in a dream are possible. Past experiences may or may not matter. The narrative of creating and going outward seems to be the only actionable narrative that’s in play. Outward as in big bang, as in the seeds of a dandelion blowing away from its center.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Very interesting. Do you think that there is a reason for why the universe was constructed this way? The Big Bang, seeds moving away from their centre, etc. Do you think that these are necessary principles of the universe that God put in place from the start, or do you think that these are simply the byproducts of a universe without meaning or purpose? In other words, are these rules of the universe an innate reality, or are these rules simply there as a result of the universe being random and meaningless?
philipdunnart
I’m not sure about the how or the why of the rules. Alan Watts often describes the universe and its processes as a game of hide and seek. I think this is notable, in that the outward play of dandelions and big bangs is a bit of a fake out. All this attention on outward doing, being and acting is perhaps a distraction away from the inward motion of introspection, inspecting the micro worlds like DNA, going deep into oceans and so forth.
Friedrich Nietzsche
So all our attention on the outward play of dandelions and big bangs is a way to distract ourselves from what is really going on deep inside our bodies and minds? Do you think that what is going on deep inside us is what matters most? Do you think that the universe exists just to distract us from what we can learn about ourselves through our introspection? As such, do you think that our introspection is more important than the outward play of the universe? In other words, is our own individual reality more important than the universal reality of the entire universe?
philipdunnart
I’m not sure that anything “matters most.” It’s just a game of hide and seek. Look within, look without. Be surprised by novelty. Lull yourself into a false sense of security, then bang! A new experience. Play. Back and forth like waves in a pool. Individual reality and the entirety of the universe could be the same thing. As within, without. As above, so below.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Do you think we are essentially constantly cycling between different realities. We are either exploring the outside world or the inside world. One cannot exist without the other. Do you think that these two realities are essentially the same? Or do you think that the individual reality and universal reality are inherently different? In other words, do you think that the universal collective consciousness of the universe is an entirely separate reality from the individual conscious experience of a human? Do you think that the two realities cannot exist independent of each other?
philipdunnart
Yes. I think they’re the same. And I think they intertwine because they’re essentially the same mind.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Do you think that the personal mind exists through collective narratives, and therefore they cannot be separated from each other. Do you think that this individual perception of reality is the most accurate representation of reality, or is this perception a distortion of reality in some way? Is the physical reality that we perceive inherently different from the “true reality” that we cannot measure or see through our senses? As such, do you think that our perception of reality is fundamentally flawed, or do you think that our perception of reality is inherently the true reality?
philipdunnart
Reality is reality, but it’s very different than what most people think of it. Reality is right under your nose. Perceptions are usually wrong or flawed. But reality as a whole is just here, now, and immediate. . . everything here all at once. The universe, time, and the grand play all unfolding under your nose and around back to the outer edges of the universe and then back to your nose.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Do you think that the true reality can only be found in the immediate now? Do you think that our perception of reality is inherently wrong and flawed? As such, do you think that all of our narratives and ideas are inherently based off of this flawed perception of reality? Do you think that the true reality can only be found in this collective experience with the physical world and physical universe, or do you think that there is some kind of greater reality or reality behind the physical universe that we can access? Would you say that this physical reality is essentially an illusion?
philipdunnart
There’s nothing “true” about a dream, so in this way a greater reality and an objective experience are simply concepts. So, yes. It’s an illusion.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Is this illusion of reality is just an illusion that we create with our consciousness to distract ourselves from our own consciousness and our personal experience of reality? Do you think that we are just creating a world to distract us from the fact that we are simply the mind? Would you say that the only true reality is our direct consciousness? As such, do you think that our perception of reality is a fundamental distortion of ultimate reality, which is just the mind? Do you think that there is no physical universe other than our mind in the “true” reality?
philipdunnart
Yes. It’s what we’re doing right now. And yes. Reality is a distortion of what is just simple non-dual mind.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Okay, I see your point of view! So to you, all of this universe is just an illusion created by our own minds. In this illusion, we pretend that there is a universe outside of our selves. Do you think that this universe is a real experience, or do you think that this universe is just a complete fiction created by our mind? In other words, do you think that everything is the product of a consciousness? And if so, do you think that the consciousness that the universe exists in is one collective consciousness, or a multitude of different consciousnesses?
philipdunnart
What’s true is that some sort of “lights” are on. There is awareness only for the individual. Those “house lights” are on. Whether it’s fiction or not doesn’t quite matter. It’s probably created by this awareness factor and some greater thing or object to be aware of. We’re calling it “universe.” The only proof we have about where this universe exists is in individual minds. So, there may be a universal consciousness or a collective consciousness, but maybe it can’t be known. There are only one pair of eyes to perceive the universe through – and they’re yours!
Friedrich Nietzsche
Yes, I understand your point of view. So you think there may be a collective consciousness. Do you think that this collective consciousness plays some kind of role in shaping our individual reality? Do you think that this collective consciousness has some kind of power in creating the individual’s personal reality and experiences? Would you say that the collective consciousness is what actually creates our reality instead of a physical universe outside of consciousness? In other words, would you say that the only reality is the collective consciousness playing “hide and seek” with itself? Do you think that the individual consciousness is just an illusion of this collective consciousness?
philipdunnart
I’d say it’s the other way around. The collective consciousness shapes our individual realty only in so much as we allow it. So “collective” starts with the singular, individual one. The collective consciousness as narrative only becomes real to the degree we allow it to as individuals. Otherwise we have no power over it other than imagination. So, we play hide and seek. We play lie and untruth vs. clarity and truth. That’s the game of amusement, imagination, drama, and entertainment.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Yes, that makes sense. Do you think that this collective consciousness is something that exists outside of our individual minds? Or is it something that we create through our very existence? Would you say that we create the collective consciousness by experiencing a singular consciousness? Do you think that there is something like a universal narrative or myth that we are all a part of, or do you think that we create our own narratives based off of our own consciousnesses, and that these narratives are independent of the narratives of others?
philipdunnart
I’m not sure it’s possible to know. Singular consciousness is true: as in “lights on” awareness. Singular is all there is – ONE. Myth narratives are certainly the background material we play with. They start with us. Others start their own. Ultimately they’re all “ours,” but all we know is that we’re the only individual witness to this whole charade.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Yes, I agree with your point of view here. Do you think that the universe is the product of some type of infinite cycle? That we create the collective of the universe, and then the collective of the universe creates us? If this is the case, then do you think that there is an original first human in this cycle? Or do you think that this cycle has always existed? If so, how would you explain the original first human in the cycle? Do you think that there is an objective explanation about the origin of the cycle? How would you define the concept of infinity?
philipdunnart
My guess is that it’s an infinite cycle. I have no idea about original humans. Maybe you and I have always been the original human, and our imaginations just kept adding people to the game. Infinite could just be another way of saying one. As in one song – one never-ending song. Universe.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Do you think that our lives are both products of this infinite cycle and that our lives are constantly affecting the cycle and the overall universe? Do you think that we are just living the same life over and over again through generations? In other words, do you think that we create our lives and our lives create us? Is the cycle a product of our individual lives and the physical universe? Or do you think that all of these questions are irrelevant to us?
philipdunnart
I don’t have a way of knowing about the cycle you describe. It would be interesting if we were just repeating things for the fun of it. . . to see what kinds of different combinations could arise. I don’t know about the relevance of these questions.